Interviews
Interviews
Joe Lewis
From 'The Explosive Joe Lewis' - 1998
In the late 1960s, while growing up in Canada and training in the Martial Arts, I had the opportunity to read all about the big name competitors from the 'Blood and Guts Era' of the American Martial Arts scene. This was years before the Bruce Lee boom of the early 1970s. Included were many people whom I considered to be my heros that someday I hoped I would meet. In fact, this came true and I have been fortunate enough to befriend many of the individuals listed. People like Bill 'Superfoot' Wallace, Benny 'The Jet' Urquidez, Al Dacascos, Chuck Norris, Jim Harrison and the biggest name of the period, Joe Lewis.
Stories about Joe Lewis abounded for years. Content varied depending to whom one was listening. Stories would vary from friends and associates that respected and felt kinship to Joe Lewis to those who were outright jealous of his ability and achievements. As is the case with any celebrity, fallacies abound about Joe Lewis too. He has been accused of being arrogant, but as a matter of fact, is extremely confident in himself. He speaks with authority and knowledge which is backed up by the fact that he has experienced everything he commented on during this interview. However, the printed word can be easily misinterpreted in tone. To set the record straight now, Joe Lewis spoke with conviction, honesty and most importantly with the intention of maintaining the integrity of the Martial Arts history he has been involved with and the facts associated with it. Some of the questions and their answers may touch a few nerves of some Martial Arts practitioners and stylists out there, but this was not done to slam anyone. History is important, but truthful history is even more important.
During this interview I asked Joe Lewis many questions about Bruce Lee. Lee was a hero of mine in the early days of my Martial Arts practice. May I make it clear that in no way did Joe Lewis come across slamming Bruce, but came across confident, precise and to the point. The affinity and kinship Lewis felt for Bruce was exposed by Lewis' eyes whenever he answered a question on the 'Little Dragon'. To back these answers, know that Joe Lewis would have the firsthand experience to back these comments. I was not offended by any of his statements, but instead found them to be fresh, insightful and important.
Eight days after Joe Lewis had left town, I spent half an hour on the phone talking with Karate Legend and Martial Arts Pioneer Bob Wall - O'Hara from the film 'Enter the Dragon'. Having studied and trained under Joe Lewis, he told me that Joe Lewis was one of the greatest fighters of all time who could have remained undefeated during his Kickboxing career. 'Joe went through some difficult times during the period when he lost some bouts. Had he been clearer minded and a little more focused, no one would have beat him'!
The interview is interesting because it exposes Joe Lewis' feelings and views about many of the public misconceptions about the Martial Arts, their practitioners and the legends. I approached this interview beyond the typical interview of 'who, what, when, where, and why' did he train. I wanted truthful facts and insights. I thoroughly believe he gave these kind of answers to me. I am delighted with the results and feel this article makes for great reading! Enjoy.
MM: Welcome back to Calgary. It is nice to see you again.
JL: I am glad to be back up here.
MM: As you know I am putting together a web page on the history of Kickboxing in North America. It is very difficult to get all the facts from people on the subject. Since you were the first name in Kickboxing in North America, what do you think of the information?
JL: A lot of information. It is coming along good.
MM: Anything you would add?
JL: Dr. Muang Gyi opened the first Martial Arts school in the USA in 1963 that involved fighting in the ring. It was simply called a Bando School. Bando is the Burmese fighting art. The first MuayThai school to be opened in the USA was in 1970 by Tong Trithara who now lives in Springfield, Missouri.
MM: Acharn Tong is my friend. Can you tell me a little about your Martial Arts background?
JL: I had involvement in many styles. I stared Judo in 1962. I received a Black Belt in Karate in 1964. This was within a year of when I started training. I just wanted to fight. In 1967 I started working at the Main Street Gym in Los Angeles with greats like Sugar Ray Robinson. I started to get serious about boxing in 1968. However, I liked boxing but wrestling even more.
MM: You are one of the few famous athletes from the 'Blood and Guts' era of the Martial Arts who worked with Bruce Lee. Is there anything you would like to say about this?
JL: I was the only student of Bruce's from this era who competitively fought after working with him. Neither Chuck Norris or Mike Stone or any of the others fought in individual competition after working with Bruce.
MM: How long did you work with Bruce Lee for?
JL: I worked with him for about a year and a half.
MM: How much influence did Bruce have on your Martial Arts ability?
JL: A lot of influence. We also had many common interests; like we both loved boxing.
MM: How did the two of you share this interest?
JL: We used to watch fight films together. We would watch certain fighters, and try to learn what we could from the best. For example we would watch the defense of Jack Johnson. We would watch the explosiveness of Jack Dempsey. We would watch the footwork of Willie Pep and Sammy Saddler.
MM: How fast was Bruce?
JL: He was the fastest man who ever stood in front of me.
MM: What were his weak points?
JL: Kicking and defense were his weakest points. When I first met him he had a few low line Wing Chun kicks. They were not very effective though. As he started watching tournament competition in the 1960s he would start learning and using techniques from them. He learned many techniques from watching me.
MM: Really?
JL: Yes, Bruce had films of me in competition. He studied my stance and my kicking from films of me fighting people like Louis Delgado and Thomas LaPuppet.
MM: What did Bruce like about you, and why did he train with you?
JL: He liked the fact that I too trained like a fanatic. He liked my side stance which he used in movies, and he also liked the fact that I was built well.
MM: You now teach using theories. Most people are not as thorough at this compared to you when they perform seminars. Did you learn this all from Bruce Lee?
JL: I figured a lot of this out myself, but a lot more came from Bruce Lee. He was very analytical at that time and had a better conceptual faculty than me. He also had great assistance from a boxing manual that came out in the 1940s. It was a book that dealt with the centerline, etc. His Tao of Jeet Kune Do used a lot of theories on fighting from this book.
MM: What were some of the results of you two working together?
JL: Together with my fighting principles and his we probably created around 30 fighting principles. For example, I could talk about the different types of speed; timing speed, intitial speed, acceleration speed, etc. Different types of mind set; focusing, aspects of focusing, target retention, etc. When I first started the Martial Arts the Orientals and the Asians could not conceptualize. I don't know if they were ignorant or thought Americans were stupid, or if they did not know any better. But I noticed one thing, they were not fighting a lot. So I figured the Americans were more interested in fighting, whereas the Orientals would push kata, etc. When it came to fighting, the Orientals did not have much to say, and they did not seem very smart. I always felt fighting was first, and then they created styles, waza's, pre-set things and all that other stuff later. For me, traditional Martial Arts went back to fighting.
MM: How about your training with Bruce?
JL: Bruce liked contact and would put on gloves. I didn't like it because he would put on the kendo style gloves that the JKD guys now wear. They are dangerous because those gloves will cut you to pieces. I also did not like laces because if they were loose, you could lose an eye and I had seen that before; same as velcro.
MM: Any thoughts on Jeet Kune Do?
JL: The Jeet Kune Do fighters are too stiff. Their theory is to put the strong side forward. This never made sense to me because does it mean only one side has power and the other does not?
MM: What did Bruce teach you, self-defense theory or ring theory?
JL: A little bit of both. He was gravitating towards Thai boxing.
MM: What did he know about Thai boxing?
JL: Bruce was not a very good kicker in the beginning. He used a lot of Wing Chun style kicks. However, he learned to do the roundhouse kick. He eventually started turning the hip. Many well know Thai instructors feel Bruce learned this from their style. Bruce then learned his hook (heel) kicks from Chuck Norris and his students.
In terms of Thai boxing, Bruce had no elbows and did not have any knee maneuvers. While punching, Bruce would try and hook off of his Wing Chun punches, but he still was not sitting down in his punches like a pro boxer. I would say in another five years he would have looked like a neo MuayThai stylist.
In regards to his students, most of his guys could never execute when it came to fighting. I could, and what I did was throw 90% of the useless techniques away and use aspects like explosiveness, bridging the gap, setting the guy up, angular attack, hands up, straight punches, move the hands before the body. Using all of these principles, I made it applicable to ring fighting. The JKD guys would not put the gloves on and spar for real. They would only tap each other and not go for it thinking they would get hurt. How can you get hurt when you are wearing a mouth guard, large puffy gloves, and a head gear? You do not get hurt in this stuff, unless you are being used as a piece of meat by a professional. Truthfully, I have seen more guys get hurt in traditional Karate than I have in Kickboxing. Kickboxers and boxers are trained to take or roll with a strike.
MM: My understanding of where Bruce and JKD was going is different than what is being taught now by his disciples. Is this an accurate comment?
JL: Bruce was moving in the direction of Kickboxing at the time, though it was a very rigid form. Suffice it to say it was less and less like JKD that is portrayed today and more like Kickboxing.
MM: Bruce had a background in Wing Chun, so what about the hand trapping drills from that style?
JL: He was moving away from that and thought it was nonsense. Bruce used to say to me that it belonged in the past. Personally very little of that is effective. Traditional boxing has some trapping techniques that I use once in awhile that are effective. But the Wing Chun stuff does not work against a good fighter like a boxer. You do not even see a lot of trapping in boxing because boxers believe if you have time to trap, then you have time to hit. Once in awhile it may be all right to trap and hit but the multiple or continuous trapping is not practical or functional. Against a good amateur boxer, the boxer will take your head off if you start trying that stuff. My trapping may go as far as to set up a pivot or a spin to the side.
MM: From my research it seems to me Bruce was a little insecure. Maybe he felt when he was working with you that he did not want to teach you trapping because it kept him one step ahead of you in ability. Any thoughts on this?
JL: Bruce was not insecure. Our goals were different; whereas I wanted to be the best at fighting, Bruce wanted to be the first Oriental Superstar. Bruce Lee was not stupid. He was constantly trying to upgrade his JKD. Read what he had to say. There are many contradictions. Why block or trap when you can strike. Bruce was very intelligent when it came to fighting, and that was why he was going to get away from the trapping and the techniques of Wing Chun.
MM: I have read stories about Bruce Lee competing in international boxing while he was in high school in Hong Kong. Any truth?
JL: I do not believe this to be true. Bruce and I loved international boxing and he never told me this. Watch the early films of him in America working the heavy bag and you will see that he is hitting using Wing Chun punches. He is not delivering like a boxer.
MM: How about the propagation of the JKD style and how they criticize other Martial Arts styles? I want to articulate more. How do you feel about the way the JKD pundits criticize Kickboxing?
JL: None of the JKD guys at the time competed. I do not mean this in a negative light, but none ever tested their JKD against any other styles and fighters. Not one of them had a professional fight record. They all talk theory, but that is the extent of it. There is 'no functioning in the line of fire'!
MM: What about Bruce Lee and when you trained with him? Did you guys never spar?
JL: Bruce never sparred with me or any of the other name fighters from the 1960s, like Chuck Norris etc.
MM: Then how did you learn from him?
JL: We would spend hours going over fight drills. That was the extent of the physical training between Bruce and I.
MM: Do comments like this put friction in between you and the JKD guys?
JL: Many of the lower eschelon have bad mouthed me for years anyway. These people who talk this way have never even met me. More importantly, none of them were around when Bruce was around and none have ever fought. Recently, one of the few JKD guys who has treated me with respect is Richard Bustillo. I know he loves and supports boxing, but I do not know what his fight skills are like.
MM: What about Dan Inosanto?
JL: I have never met Dan, but I have heard that he is the first guy to admit, even at his seminars, that he is not a fighter.
MM: You teach seminars each year with Bill Wallace and Dr. Jerry Beasley. Does Dr. Beasley have anything to do with JKD anymore?
JL: No, he has now left the group. He is no longer associated with them. They have in the recent past put together what is known as the JKD Jun Fan Nucleus. I was asked by Linda Lee to attend the first meeting of the group and give a speech to all present as well as become part of the group. However, I had to decline even though I knew I upset Linda. I am sorry about upsetting her.
MM: Why did you refuse?
JL: One of the non JKD people involved with the group is someone I do not trust. He seems to be in it for his benefit, and matter of fact considers himself a Bruce Lee expert when in fact he was never around or met Bruce. I will not have anything to do with the JKD group or become an active member until this person is no longer involved.
MM: There is a big upsurge in instructors who claim to be teaching JKD, JKD concepts or whatever you want to call it. How do you feel about this?
JL: I will not mention names, but one of the guys propagating the JKD schools is not what he claims to be. It is unfortunate that JKD has been bastardized to the point it has today.
MM: I have seen many of the JKD people now claiming to teach Boxing, Arnis, MuayThai, etc. They portray themselves as masters of all styles. How do you feel about this?
JL: Many of the boxing coaches I have worked with, or are associated with, and are now nationally respected in the USA have went and watched members of JKD practice in Los Angeles. They have come back and told me that the boxing ability of the practitioners in many cases is only around the level of a beginning amateur athlete.
MM: I have recently seen you becoming more and more involved in the grappling aspect of the Martial Arts. Why is this?
JL: When I was younger I always wanted to be a professional wrestler. Throughout my career this was my goal. Even when I was considering doing my professional boxing career, I hated this and would have preferred to wrestle. Grappling and wrestling is good stuff.
MM: Did Bruce do any grappling?
JL: He was going down and working with 'Judo' Gene LeBell. If you look at Wing Chun they have sets where a guy comes at you, you trap and sweep the guy to the ground. What Bruce learned from 'Judo' Gene he used in the movie 'Game of Death' where he put a crank, or I think it is called a guillotine, on Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Bruce was starting to get into it.
MM: The early 1990s was a time of upheaval in the Martial Arts. Along came the UFC with the Gracie family. They started challenging everyone of any consequence. What did you think of the UFC?
JL: I hated it because it put the Martial Arts back around 50 years.
MM: How?
JL: The early and most watched UFCs included a bunch of bums who were portrayed as Champions. In reality the athletes were a bunch of out of shape slobs who could not fight. I had never even heard of these guys before, but in order to sell the UFC as including the best fighters in the world, they used people who were complete unknowns.
The first few shows left a bad taste in people's mouths, but later on they cleaned up their act. It will never take off in the USA because it is banned in 33 states, so these promoters will take the show to Japan, Mexico, South Africa or wherever and hawk it through videotape because the demand for videotape worldwide is incredible.
MM: Did the Gracie's ever challenge you?
JL: No. I never had a problem with this from anyone. I would not accept a challenge anyway. Never have and never will. If I was to fight any of the Gracie's, I would fight like an animal. Believe me there would be no rules. I would bite the fight right out of them. Biting is one of my favorite street techniques anyway.
MM: What about Royce's fighting ability?
JL: He was slapped by one of his opponents, and left the ring seeing double and with high blood pressure. This is a sign of concussion, and after that event he was taken to the hospital to be treated for concussion. He is a big man and only took a slap to end up that way. What does that say about his ability to take a punch?
MM: What do you think of the Gracies?
JL: They have always been very nice to me. Their ground work is excellent. However they are weak in the striking department, and not the strongest when it comes to throwing.
MM: Before this interview, I asked you about a certain instructor in Calgary whom I have had prior problems with. You told me you have never heard of him. He claims he was invited to fight at the UFC, but was turned down because he was too good. What do you think about claims like this?
JL: Too good? Really! Ha ha ha. There will always be talkers.
MM: I have a signed document from Art Davies, former match maker for the UFC who has since left the event, telling me he has never heard of this guy also. Art also says this guy and anyone believing this statement is delusional. Unfortunately, claims like this are running rampant.
JL: I agree.
MM: What do you think of all the instructors who were teaching Karate, Kung Fu, and Tae Kwon Do who are now claiming to be grappling instructors?
JL: It is just a fad.
MM: Who was your toughest opponent in the ring?
JL: The toughest people I ever faced were my sparring partners.
MM: Anything from the past; fighting, involvement or associations, that bothers you or you regret?
JL: In the early 1970s I went to Toronto for a Kickboxing bout with Canadian Wally Slocki. At this event, and before the bout, the promoter came up to me and asked me to take it easy on Slocki because he was scared. The promoter wanted the fight to last longer for the spectators. I agreed. But when we started our exhibition, Slocki came at me and started throwing front kicks that had full intention of knocking my block off. In between rounds I went back to the corner and decided I was going to drop Slocki. I came out and I really hurt him. I dropped him hard and knocked him out with a knee to the head. The referee walked over and asked me to take it easy on him so the fight could continue. I ran him out of the ring at the sound of the bell. Between rounds the promoter came over and told me Slocki wanted to quit, so they ended the fight. At that point, it made the result of the fight a TKO. Now he has the distinction of being knocked out twice in one fight by me. After the exhibition bout, the referee raised both of our hands. A while later, I remember reading a newspaper advertisement for Slocki's gym stating that he was the only man to ever fight Joe Lewis to a draw. Fortunately this bout was televised for the record.
MM: I know of your association with the owners of NAPMA (National Association of Professional Martial Artists) organization. Their organization is making a ton of money. What is their goal?
JL: John and Jim Graden who run NAPMA are students of mine. They have consistently asked me to become involved in their organization. In fact I have been asked to write a chapter for an upcoming book of theirs. However, NAPMA is not a grading or certification organization or program. I have told John and Jim of the dangers of doing this, and they have agreed. When someone states they are graded in or certified by NAPMA, for example in Kickboxing, they are misleading the public.
MM: Thank you for the interview.
JL: You're welcome Mike. Talk to you again soon.
